Godot 3 kickstarter tutorial question(s)

justinbarrettjustinbarrett Posts: 44Member

So, I am a little confused...I want to understand if I am well...understanding this correctly.
There is a indie game dev who teamed up with the godot team to make a 2d(where tutorials are not lacking) game tutorial series?
There is a kickstarter paying for the series....aannnnddd people are expected to buy the tutorial series thereafter?
I maybe confusing this...but to get more people using the software you need to empower them to use it....not put that ability behind a paywall. Or have I completely misunderstood something...I really hope I am wrong.

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Comments

  • MegalomaniakMegalomaniak Posts: 816Admin
    edited May 2017

    Well, creating high quality collection of content takes not only skill but also time and highly skilled professionals can't be expected to afford to spend large amounts of their working hours to create free content. In the big picture it's better for Godot's growth for there to be for-cost professional grade/high quality learning material than for there to be no professional grade learning material. Especially something on the scale of developing a full game from beginning to end.

    Besides no-one's going to force you to buy the series, if you don't want to pay for the tutorials you consume then hey, vote with your wallet, by keeping it in your pocket. As for the KickStarter, people who pledge get, as mentioned on the KS page, a corresponding set of the tutorial material. You don't have to pay twice.

  • KioriKiori Posts: 246Member

    @justinbarrett

    I believe that buy supporting the kickstarter you are getting said tutorials by half price. The tuts are high quality as per other tutorials GDquest has done. I believe the tuts will be available post KS but like i said at a more expansive price.

    Also, I believe the free youtubes every day are just an extra
    At any rate, I messaged the developer in question to answer this more properly.

    Hope that helps. ;)

  • memzenmemzen Posts: 16Member

    @justinbarrett: You say 2D tutorials are not lacking but I know they are lacking. I am very frustrated by the lack of examples for the proper usage of the 1000+ commands I find that would be useful to me when searching the help reference documentation. At slant.co Godot is listed as the best 2D game engine but one of the cons of the engine is "The documentation is poorly written, and has very few examples of real application and even fewer design guidelines about how to program a game in the engine." I would not agree that the documentation is poorly written but much more needs to be explained about the many useful commands in Godot. The persons contributing to the kickstarter campaign are grateful to those who are attempting to meet some of the need with this tutorial video series.

  • NeoDNeoD Posts: 130Member
    edited May 2017

    I wonder if a tutorial on a single game will answer to all questions about Godot, and will turn people to ninjas of game development. If the documentation is poor let's create a Kickstarter fundraising to hire a technical writer.
    Reading such a tutorial takes time for a guy who has already read the "step by step" official tutorial, the officials demos (very very useful) and already know the basics. Generally such a guy just looks for explanations about some specific stuff.

    Don't get me wrong, it's not bad to add a quality tutorial for Godot at all. It would be like a reference for beginners but I advise people that it's not a magic solution to be a master of Godot.

  • RukiriRukiri Posts: 57Member

    Isn't there going to be free tutorials during the campaign? I might donate $20-40 bucks when I get paid on the 2nd. I guess the unity Zelda series kinda stopped granted most of the stuff was there "battle, movement, ai, hud" but no menu system.

    Will he be using C# or GDNative or GDScript?

  • SchusterSchuster Posts: 273Member

    Yes,exactly....like memzen said : "I am very frustrated by the lack of examples for the proper usage of the 1000+ commands I find that would be useful to me when searching the help reference"
    .....I think we need a somethink like Godot Bible(book) with a practical examples of commands,functions.
    But this kickstarter is great.....Godot engine also needs professional video tutorials

  • AkienAkien Posts: 70Godot Leader

    @Rukiri said:
    Isn't there going to be free tutorials during the campaign?

    Yes, every single day. The first one was published yesterday:

    Will he be using C# or GDNative or GDScript?

    GDScript. He might make a video or two about C# and GDNative to show how they can be used, but that won't be the focus.

  • GDquestGDquest Posts: 8Member

    Hey there! Sorry it took me some time to get back to you. The campaign involves some stretch goals and contributions to the demos and docs for Godot 3. Looking at how the campaign is going, you can bet it will happen.
    With the next milestone, I'll open source the full project, comment the code and make it available as part of the Godot 3 demos (MIT / CC0 licences). You can find the details on this Kickstarter update.

    If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ping me on Twitter or the Godot Discord server.

  • justinbarrettjustinbarrett Posts: 44Member
    edited May 2017

    Thank you, it's not that I am "above" paying for something, but in a market where unity and UE4 exist and have ample free tutorials out there and appear in many ways more appealing to the beginner....I felt that paying for information that should be readily accessible to any user is the wrong choice for the growth of Godot...investing in a kickstarter is fine, even with stretch goals, I just did not feel like that paying was a good path for "us"(not like I contribute, but should)....the larger the user base the more contributors will exist in larger numbers...plus I feel like all information on how to use and implet things in software should be free ESPECIALLY if said resources and information are coming from the people providing the software...there are other ways to make revenue and extend your product....in the end GDquest gave me the exact response I expected and had hoped for. I want to thank you personally as well as the contributors of the engine. My only gripe is that the tutorials are based on 2D, so I will probably never even take a peek at them....needless to say quality level tutorials are a great thing to have, be it 2D or 3D.. I hope this response makes some sense...I just rolled out of bed ;)

  • theApetheApe Posts: 1Member

    I think the confusion is that since Godot developers support this kickstarter, somehow they´re responsible for it? As far as I can tell this is still an indie developer trying to make a living providing quality tutorials for Godot (and Krita), who chose to approach the Godot developers to attain their support in promoting, and possibly also improve Godot documentation and examples if enough people back the kickstarter.. So it´s not actually "coming from the people providing the software".

  • whooshfrostedwhooshfrosted Posts: 30Member

    Yeah he's independent of Godot. I read that he's rare in that he's willing to teach open source software. They said for some reason professional instructors generally won't teach open source software.

    unity and UE4 exist and have ample free tutorials out there and appear in many ways more appealing to the beginner..

    I tried them both, gave up and came here. UE is very complex, is suited for large teams and the documentation and tutorials date quickly, because development on the engine moves so fast. Unity, just no, but I won't get into that. Godot is the easiest to learn engine I've used so far, and the documentation is fine if you have any programming experience at all. If you are a beginner, you should start in 2D. 3D is a whole new level of frustration. Learn 2D on Godot thoroughly then move up to 3D.

    And free tutorials do not compare to ones made by professionals. The difference between someone doing the odd video in their spare time to help out the community, vs something that is comprehensive cannot be compared. My only gripe is I would have to wait till October, but they said they will be releasing tutes before?

  • RukiriRukiri Posts: 57Member

    @whooshfrosted said:
    Yeah he's independent of Godot. I read that he's rare in that he's willing to teach open source software. They said for some reason professional instructors generally won't teach open source software.

    And free tutorials do not compare to ones made by professionals. The difference between someone doing the odd video in their spare time to help out the community, vs something that is comprehensive cannot be compared. My only gripe is I would have to wait till October, but they said they will be releasing tutes before?

    Daily videos on youtube but they're sparse and quite basic honestly...

  • brunosxsbrunosxs Posts: 3Member
    edited May 2017

    Hey guys, he just posted the 4th video talking about how to create a zelda-like camera effect. If you can't back the project with money, share as this will help a lot too!

    I've learned a lot with godot, having come from Construct2 a little more than a year ago and having material with the level of quality that he does(production and content) is invaluable.

  • GDquestGDquest Posts: 8Member
    edited May 2017

    @whooshfrosted said:
    I read that he's rare in that he's willing to teach open source software. They said for some reason professional instructors generally won't teach open source software.

    Because it's hard to make a living, you work long hours and you have no opportunity for jobs i.e. at local gamedev colleges or in game studios, Unity and UE being taught in the vast majority of schools.

    @Rukiri said:
    Daily videos on youtube but they're sparse and quite basic honestly...

    That's one of the trade-offs with daily videos [especially when you edit them]. There's graphic design and communication work on every one of them, plus more work for the KS, making it nearly impossible to tackle complex topics.

    I'm not a programming expert, but a game designer first and foremost. I'm getting up to speed thanks to some industry veterans, so the quality will only go up over time, and you'll see after ~1 year focusing on Godot, you'll be looking at a ton of content for all kinds of users. Including important contributions to Godot itself.

    Don't hesitate to point out when the code isn't Godot-ic (do we have a word for that? Similar to Pythonic for Python), when the solution isn't clear, not future-proof etc. I'm open to critiques, and although you can't change Youtube videos, I correct the code on Github and add comments there.

    NB: I do have professional experience working in games, both as a freelancer and an indie (working on mobile and html5, browser-based titles that we sold to publishers). So hopefully there's still a lot of valuable info I can share right now.

  • whooshfrostedwhooshfrosted Posts: 30Member

    I think they were saying there is a resistance to teaching open source software in general. I have also seen devs who won't make games for Linux, because they think people that use Linux have no money. I'd think that Linux users would have more money, because they don't have to spend so much on every day software.

    Anyway, I will be supporting your Kickstarter and I'm very excited to watch the course. I only wish I could get it right now. Good luck. :)

  • KioriKiori Posts: 246Member

    @whooshfrosted said:
    I'd think that Linux users would have more money, because they don't have to spend so much on every day software.

    Yeah, that's my experience also, in the years inside the Ubuntu community I saw that very clearly. The catch though is there aren't as many linux users as there are windows or mac, in total absolute numbers.
    I remember a dev a while back, he made the effort of porting his game to mac/lin and 50% of his revenue came from non windows platforms, so... Who knows right.

  • whooshfrostedwhooshfrosted Posts: 30Member
    edited May 2017

    @Kiori
    "50% of his revenue came from non windows platforms, so... "

    Yes, I saw the same said by the Spiderweb Software guy many years ago. He said half his income came from Windows, which was 90% of the market at that time, and half came from Apple which was only 10% of the market. Brian Fargo from InXile also said they made a game that flopped, until they released it on a certain platform. For some reason the people there went crazy for it, and the game became a financial success. So as you say, you never know!

    That's another thing I appreciate about Godot. As long as your game is entirely scripted, you can press a button and your game can run on another platform!

  • justinbarrettjustinbarrett Posts: 44Member

    some of us use linux because we do not have money to throw around. I make a modest living, feed and cloth my family etc...but any frivolous spending is for birthdays and Christmas....I will probably never pay for any tutorial...also the linux users mindset is to support foss and foss suporters(like a teacher :) ), but we are generally not a wealthy bunch...some are, but in general nope.

    I was under the impression that they were backing this...still for me 8k+ euros is enough for me to live on for 4 months...easily and needless to say I will not be purchasing it. I'm not against this sort of training scenario....I just feel like it is marketed incorrectly.

  • whooshfrostedwhooshfrosted Posts: 30Member
    edited May 2017

    ". I make a modest living, feed and cloth my family etc...but any frivolous spending is for birthdays and Christmas..."

    So how did you afford a computer with a 3D card? They aren't cheap

    ".also the linux users mindset is to support foss and foss suporters(like a teacher :) ), but we are generally not a wealthy bunch...some are, but in general nope."

    You are speaking for some Linux users. Sounds like they are the reason why commercial developers won't give the platform any of their time.

    I was motivated to move to Linux, because I resented spyware masquerading as an operating system. Personal wealth or socialist ideas had nothing to do with it. People who remain on Windows and Apple, I genuinely feel sorry for them, because I know what is being done with their information. So I like the open software part the most.

    "I will probably never pay for any tutorial."

    If you want free tutorials there are tons on Youtube. After reading the documentation, I used them to fill in areas I didn't understand. The information is out there, but instead of costing you some money to get it in one place, it will cost you a lot of your time to go out and find it.

    "still for me 8k+ euros is enough for me to live on for 4 months.."

    And what would you do for the rest of the year? Hold Kickstarters 3 times every year? This guy makes a living teaching FOSS, as he explained its not easy. He has to eat just like you and your family, lets let him do it. ;)

  • GDquestGDquest Posts: 8Member
    edited May 2017

    @justinbarrett said:
    still for me 8k+ euros is enough for me to live on for 4 months...easily

    Please add the 60 workdays involved in the campaign (~3 months worth of work for an average employee), take in account taxes, fixed costs linked to my status, and the fact I'm an independent worker. It's great for me, but it's not a lot of money for a French freelancer. Especially as I'd like to pay collaborators and hire people eventually. A good developer? 60k/year. A good community manager? 30-40k/year.

    Then, the Kickstarter clearly states it's for a premium course. It's clear, the backers know what they get into. Yet the count keeps growing. You should give this discussion a look on Reddit.

  • MechFiveMechFive Posts: 3Member

    First of all congratulations to GDquest for what is soon to be a successful kick-starter campaign! I've watched GDquests Krita tutorials and they are great, the work he does is on the par. ;)

    Though I'm a little concerned about this campaign being promoted on Godot Engine home page. Why is Godot promoting 3rd-party commercial products? See now there are two ads for this course where I (and maybe others) are expecting maybe soon to have some update on the engine process.

    IMO now one individual has an clear advantage over someone else trying to maybe make a living out of making tutorials. I'm not opposed on someone campaigning his project on forums (I believe it would have been just as successful as GDquest is I believe quite well known instructor on the open source program field) and elsewhere, but an endorsement in the official home page? I don't know now I feel there are soon ads in Godot news section to go fund this and that.

    I realize it's carefully curated on who gets this kind of opportunity and maybe this is a one off thing. I just feel like this is socially a bit awkward. This is just how I feel about all of this and if someone has good argument on an aspect that I didn't realize on the matter I will gladly accept it and change my opinion on the case ;)

  • whooshfrostedwhooshfrosted Posts: 30Member
    edited May 2017

    @MechFive
    "Why is Godot promoting 3rd-party commercial products? "

    They also tell us about commercial games made with Godot on the main website, and on their main Twitter feed. Do you think that information should be removed as well?

    "IMO now one individual has an clear advantage over someone else trying to maybe make a living out of making tutorials. "

    There are no other individuals making a full time living, making tutorials for Godot and that is a problem. If you had read the thread, you would know that professionals and schools won't make content for open source software, because they don't take its user base seriously, apparently.

    "I just feel like this is socially a bit awkward. This is just how I feel about all of this and if someone has good argument on an aspect that I didn't realize on the matter I will gladly accept it and change my opinion on the case "

    I don't feel socially awkward when a newsworthy item is posted, because it is a news section. That means they should post items of major interest that are occurring in the Godot world. On a game website I post at, in their News Section they regularly post in great detail news of Kickstarters in the style of games, the website's user base is interested in, because without that community support, those games would never get made. Should I feel awkward about it? It never occurred to me. I just want the games I like made.

    "if someone has good argument on an aspect that I didn't realize on the matter I will gladly accept it and change my opinion on the case"

    If you read the link posted by GDQuest to Reddit, you would see he has bought 1 million views to the Krita website with his tutorials. Do you think promotion like that is good for Godot?

    Two engines before I tried Godot, I was using an engine where the guy did not promote it, and due to his autism he would not join in partnerships with other people either. And guess what? Because of his purist ideals, it is a quality engine that no one uses. This is bad for him because he gets almost no sales, and it is a disservice to his customers because they can find no one to partner with, nor can they find employment using it. Why use an engine with no users, when you can go to Unreal or Unity with their big communities instead? And that is what his users eventually did. If you don't promote and make partnerships you slowly die.

  • GDquestGDquest Posts: 8Member
    edited May 2017

    @MechFive said:
    IMO now one individual has an clear advantage over someone else trying to maybe make a living out of making tutorials.

    The developers support anyone who supports Godot. They promote games made with Godot (even commercial ones), companies that use Godot...

    Consider this: if I'm around for a year covering the engine, that's a year of communication for the project. Something extremely rare for open source projects, yet essential to their growth. That's a lot of support from a professional content creator. A lot of new users. Better educational material too, both paid and free. Contributions to the docs where it's needed, not just where I'd like to make changes. It's more professionals looking into the engine too, including companies that have the money to donate to the project.

    Why am I the first to get a news post of that nature? Nobody else started such a project! It doesn't come out of nowhere. We spent a lot of time discussing it, got the opinion of the community, talked with reduz... it started back around last November, in 2016. I proved I'm willing to work hard, to help, and that I can be trusted to deliver. Akien reviews almost everything to ensure I live up to my engagements.

    Would have it been a success without the support of the developers? After the launch, it seems so. But you can't imagine how much of a snowball effect you need for a crowdfunding campaign to work. How much the first 24 hours influence the 29 days that come after it. How many hours go into it and how risky it is. Last week, I worked over 80 net hours, with 10 hours commuting to the office. I didn't take a day off since the start of May.

    Now we can say it worked. But it worked because nothing was left to chance. In the end, the extra money means large contributions to Godot where it's lacking.

  • whooshfrostedwhooshfrosted Posts: 30Member

    Another thing that occurred to me, if schools and other professionals won't make content for open source software, professional game companies aren't going to use it either, because there will be nothing they can reliably train their staff with. So when a professional content creator wants to do something with your engine, the smart thing is to embrace them.

    Partnerships are just as important as quality code. If you ignore one of the two the engine will die. If you have seen what I saw, you would understand. I wasted 4 or 5 years on a good engine, who's user base got smaller every year.

  • MechFiveMechFive Posts: 3Member

    First off I already congratulated on your success, everyone has to work hard that is a granted on this field so not going to congratulate on that, and I absolutely didn't mean to undermine your efforts in any way if that is what you got out of my comment.

    I meant down the line where there might be more endeavours to KS something that is essentially paid 3rd party add-on. I would get it if the news section was used to commission something to Godot engine that would be free and part of Godot after the commissioning has been funded. In this case I would back this project instantly, even though the content of this course might not be best suited for me (the only reason I'm not aboard already).

    Now we run the risk that someone might KS say an add-on to Godot that would introduce an significant boost to Godot engine but it would be an 3rd party add-on behind a pay-wall. I don't get why Godot engine wishes to endorse this kind of development since it deviates quite from the nature of what I thought is Godot engine. And by endorsing I mean in the front page like this kind of practice is essential for Godot. Why not give this support where other product support is given?

    So I feel like other arguments were besides my point (though granted, I didn't articulate it very well in the first place). Ones goal is to get as much visibility to his work in order to get it to sell, so that is a granted, not something to be held as ransom or argument in the matter. I never meant that this was a bad project that is happening, quite the opposite, it is fantastic and healthy for the engine. It is only advertised on slightly wrong section for the product that it is after finished.

    I'm merely raising my concern for the news of this project to get prime position in the Godot engine home page and what the implications of that might be if this was not one time occurrence. News section would be an effective way to commission something for the engine, but to use it to get community funding for paid 3rd party product isn't healthy in large quantities I feel.

  • GDquestGDquest Posts: 8Member
    edited May 2017

    @MechFive said:
    I absolutely didn't mean to undermine your efforts in any way if that is what you got out of my comment.

    No worries, no offense taken! I appreciate the conversation, it's interesting.

    I'm merely raising my concern for the news of this project to get prime position in the Godot engine home page and what the implications of that might be if this was not one time occurrence.

    If similar projects were to pop more and more (it'll probably still take time), the way the communication is done would likely change. I.e. there's Blendernation and other platforms like the Blender market to promote the work of the community now. As far as the official website, you'd likely see a shop pop or something else separate from the main project. That's speculation on my end but Akien has been in the open source world for a long time, and he knows what he's doing.

    Again, the Kickstarter funds both free and paid content. The free part is free as in free speech, and includes big contributions that no one else has the time to take care of now (working on the docs). The project is in a state where there's a lot to be done and they need all the help they can get. And we're pragmatic about it: if there's someone here for ~1 year full-time (maybe more), it's going to benefit everyone.

    We should bring the conversation to what we consider free software to entail, the principles we follow, the values we act for. I'll write up on that ASAP, but first gotta go catch the train! :smile:

    EDIT:
    First of all, free software doesn't have anything to do with paid/unpaid. You certainly know it, but not everyone does as the word is confusing. The web is filled with companies that produce open source technologies and offer paid services at the same time. When they have the funds, these technologies evolve fast as a result. Anyone can still access the sources, modify them, learn from them, fork them. See React, made by Facebook initially. The community pushed it forward and built a robust ecosystem around it.

    If your goal is to push the technology forward, have a stronger impact on the world, you must put man-hours into it. And in our world, this means you need money. I've done a lot of benevolent work in the past and seen it fail to make a difference. The collaboration on the Kickstarter is the result of a pragmatic exchange, above all things: there's something to gain for everyone here. It also answers a demand from the community, and relaying the info is beneficial to those persons, even though some are uncomfortable with the idea.

  • RukiriRukiri Posts: 57Member

    @whooshfrosted said:
    ". I make a modest living, feed and cloth my family etc...but any frivolous spending is for birthdays and Christmas..."

    So how did you afford a computer with a 3D card? They aren't cheap

    ".also the linux users mindset is to support foss and foss suporters(like a teacher :) ), but we are generally not a wealthy bunch...some are, but in general nope."

    You are speaking for some Linux users. Sounds like they are the reason why commercial developers won't give the platform any of their time.

    I was motivated to move to Linux, because I resented spyware masquerading as an operating system. Personal wealth or socialist ideas had nothing to do with it. People who remain on Windows and Apple, I genuinely feel sorry for them, because I know what is being done with their information. So I like the open software part the most.

    "I will probably never pay for any tutorial."

    If you want free tutorials there are tons on Youtube. After reading the documentation, I used them to fill in areas I didn't understand. The information is out there, but instead of costing you some money to get it in one place, it will cost you a lot of your time to go out and find it.

    "still for me 8k+ euros is enough for me to live on for 4 months.."

    And what would you do for the rest of the year? Hold Kickstarters 3 times every year? This guy makes a living teaching FOSS, as he explained its not easy. He has to eat just like you and your family, lets let him do it. ;)

    If you are truly FOSS than you'd be using FOSS hardware as well which...barely exists and the performance is so bad why bother... I wouldn't take FOSS to Richard Stallman extremes that's just downright loony.

  • MechFiveMechFive Posts: 3Member

    @GDquest

    Well I've decided to back this project, as it helps the community greatly (this was clear from the start) and because the work you do is truly exceptional. Thinking it trough I also believe to learn a great deal from this course :) . This project is beneficial for everyone and this content will induce more users and developers around Godot. Selling advanced lessons to ones gain is just a sensible thing to conduct business vice.

    My concerns regarding the way this product was introduced stands alleviated as you speculated it to have been an occurrence emerged from a dire need. For future reference I still think the front page should be used for commissioning deals if any and these type of products endorsed elsewhere, but I guess that is indeed an untimely concern for now.

    I don't hold it against you on having a good business intuition nor do I tell how you should conduct your business and what to do with your products, since that is definitely not my place nor do I in anyway disagree with your methods. I was ultimately trying to reach the development teams attention for some explanation as why endorse paid product like this and if this is to occur more in the future.

    We are all here to make ends meet and maybe then some. I'll be damned if spend my whole life making cardboard boxes (not even kidding, I have the most uninteresting job The Simpsons came up with :D ) for living. So everyone or at least most of us are around this FOSS for monetary benefit and it is how this world works. All this said, good luck and lot of strength with this important undertaking and may it be good! ;)

  • MegalomaniakMegalomaniak Posts: 816Admin

    @Rukiri said:
    If you are truly FOSS than you'd be using FOSS hardware as well which...barely exists and the performance is so bad why bother...

    Last I checked OpenRISC is nowhere near mature enough for physical manufacturing...

  • justinbarrettjustinbarrett Posts: 44Member

    I just want to apologize if I immediately sent this post down a road that a lot of threads go...I stand by my word, but I still hope you the best of luck with your project...anyone who chooses to nitpick through peoples comments...well...it is clear that you have nothing better to do...so I will leave it at that.

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